In this episode, I’m welcoming Teri Patterson (The Sober Nutritionist) back on the show to talk about Dry January, what it is, and how taking a mindful break from alcohol and approaching it with curiosity can lead to a new awareness about how alcohol is impacting your health and wellness.
Key Takeaways:
Growing Awareness: The awareness and participation in Dry January have significantly increased in recent years. In 2021, about 13% of Americans considered participating, while in 2022, this number rose to 35%, indicating a growing wellness conversation around mindful breaks from drinking.
Non-Alcoholic Beverage Industry: The rise of Dry January has led to an increase in non-alcoholic beverage options, with major companies introducing alcohol-free products to support the movement.
Mindful Break from Drinking: Dry January is not about depriving oneself but about taking a mindful break from alcohol. Shifting the mindset from deprivation to gaining new ways to honor the body is a more empowering approach.
Potential Benefits of Dry January:
Improved energy levels
Reduced anxiety
Better sleep
Less brain fog
Enhanced mood
Skip the goals, set Intentions: Instead of setting rigid goals, focus on setting intentions. Ask yourself why you want to participate in Dry January and how you want to feel at the end of the month.
Curiosity and Mindset: Approach Dry January with curiosity. Pay attention to any challenges, cravings, or shifts in mindset. Curiosity helps suspend judgment and fosters a more positive experience.
Common Dry January Misconceptions:
Some may see Dry January as a way to prove they don’t have a drinking problem. It’s essential to recognize that willpower alone may not lead to lasting change; tools and support are crucial.
That one must complete the full 31 days, or the effort is wasted. Each day offers valuable data points to guide the journey.
Benefits Beyond January: February 1st is not the end; it’s an opportunity to ease into the insights gained. Use journaling to reflect on the experience, revisit initial intentions, and design the post-January period intentionally.
Rediscovering Fun Sober: Challenge the myth that “sober is boring.” Reconnect with activities and experiences without relying on alcohol. Engage in hobbies, socialize, and find joy in the absence of alcohol.
Quotes:
“If sober is boring, you’re doing it wrong.”
“We have to ask ourselves, is that true? What happened when I was 10 and I was running around in the backyard playing with my friends and we were playing doorbell ditch and laughing and hoping we didn’t get caught or running through the sprinklers. Where is that person? That person is still inside of us.”
“February 1st is not the, you know, you don’t put the key in the lock and now I’m out of jail. Imagine February 1st as the time to just ease into the information that you’ve gained and allow yourself to say. Okay. Wow. That was really interesting.”
Teri Patterson is a Functional Nutritionist and a This Naked Mind Senior Coach. Teri blends her knowledge of nutrition with her passion for living an alcohol-free life into a unique business as The Sober Nutritionist.
Teri’s mission is to help her clients discover how drinking less can be the key to better health. Teri is also the host of the popular podcast The Sober Edge, Inspiration for Alcohol-Free Living and the creator of the brand-new SELF Experience, a place for women after alcohol who want to build a life by design, not by default.
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Laurie: Welcome, everyone. Today, Teri Patterson, also known as the Sober Nutritionist, is back on the show, and she’s here to chat with us about Dry January, what it is, and how taking a mindful break from alcohol and approaching it with curiosity can lead to a new awareness about how alcohol is showing up in your life and impacting your health and wellness.
Welcome, Teri.
Teri: It’s so nice to be here. I’m excited to be back on your podcast and having a conversation around dry January.
Laurie: You are like my expert on very compassionately examining our relationship with alcohol and what it means and how it shows up and looking at all the ways that it’s impacting the different areas of our life. So I’m excited to dig in with you as we’re coming up to January. And a lot of people will be participating in the Dry January. So I really want to get some information out there for people to help them participate successfully, however it looks for them. What we’re going to start with is in case anybody doesn’t know what is dry January and why it’s becoming more popular in recent years.
Teri: Yes, we see the roots of dry January actually from 2013 when a British organization called Alcohol Concern, they actually started a charitable fundraiser around taking a 30 day break from drinking alcohol. And the reason they picked January was of course, because traditionally people might want to make some healthy changes.
But the other interesting part is they did it because the pubs and the bars don’t get as much business during January. So they thought, Oh, this is a good time for people who aren’t necessarily going out to the pub so much. To take a mindful break from drinking. And so that’s really the roots of it. And it was done to help raise money.
And, uh, it’s been fascinating because the movement has grown since then. And now it is absolutely huge. And I was looking up some statistics because what we see in the United States, it’s really interesting in these last few years as awareness. around taking a mindful break from drinking has become more popular.
We see these dry January numbers just increasing exponentially. So in 2021, we had about 13 percent of the American populations say, yes, I’m considering, or I am going to participate in dry January. And in 2022, 35 percent of Americans said they wanted to participate. So you can see that the awareness, the wellness conversation around taking a break is really growing.
And to support that, we’re seeing a lot of companies jumping into the non alcoholic beverage industry, seeing big names now like Heineken Zero, for example. Everyone is coming out with their own version of an alcohol free product to support this movement.
Laurie: I have noticed that, Teri. I’ve seen so many ads just in the last year popping up everywhere for non alcoholic versions of alcoholic drinks for people who want to feel like they’re still social or they still can have that drink, but without the alcohol impact.
I was going to say too, that In January, we tend to see a lot of, like, the pendulum swing. So, like, December is a big month for indulgence. People like to eat a lot of special foods and, and they tend to maybe not move as much. They’re out of their regular routine. And by the end of December, people are at a point they’re like, I just want to get back into doing the things that I normally do that make me feel good.
Sleeping more, moving more, eating the foods that I’m used to eating on a regular basis that make my insides feel good. We see that pendulum go from like really enjoying to [00:04:00] restriction. I’m going to start a diet. I’m going to start cutting out all these foods starting January 1st. I have a resolution. I’m not going to do X, Y, Z.
If you’ve been a big drinker over the holidays, it’s probably one of those things that people are just like, Oh, I really overdid it. Maybe I need to take a break, or maybe I need to kind of look at what this means.
Teri: Exactly. And so we often want to be like, it’s like an alcohol timeout, you know, so I’m going to take this time out and alcohol is the enemy and you know, and, and I’m, I’m deprived.
I’m sitting over here in the no fun corner, not drinking for the month of January. Right. And so. It, again, when we go back to mindset, it’s really powerful to think about what we’re gaining versus what we’re giving up because we can maybe look at it as deprivation and that’s just not going to serve us in the long term.
So it’s so much more powerful to say, Oh my gosh, I found new ways to honor my body.
Laurie: 100 percent because when I went vegan, like 150 years ago, it feels like, at the time it was more like. I approached it with curiosity. What would happen if I took 30 days where I didn’t consume this? How would I feel? Would I feel better?
I’ll give myself permission. As soon as you say, I can’t have, I can’t, like it’s off limits. Your brain goes, Oh, I have never wanted that more in my entire life than I do right now. But if you kind of approach it with here’s, you know what, I’m going to see how it feels and just keep my mind open and be aware of like what’s going on here and there and just make note.
How does that feel in my body? Right. So approaching alcohol the same way, what you’re gaining could be, you know, better digestion, better sleep, more energy, more friends, more clarity, like all of these great things can come from this that you wouldn’t experience necessarily if you don’t take that break or approach Dry January with that curiosity. I love that you mentioned that.
Teri: It’s also interesting too, as you say, we, we want to be mindful that when we go from indulgence to restriction that, you know, we need to have time for our mindset to catch up. And one of the things I really love about dry January is it’s no longer feels like something that gets sprung on us. January 1st, we now see a lot of opportunity to sort of prepare and think about it and plan and have some intention behind it.
And we’re also seeing that it’s not, uh, you’re not an outlier. Any longer when you choose to participate in dry January, I think if you pay attention, your listeners and all of us will notice more people say, Oh yeah, I’m going to take a month off.
I’m going to, um, you know, participate in dry January and it’s now seen as positive. It’s no longer like, Oh, I have a problem. I need to take a break from alcohol.
Laurie: I love that. It’s just taking a step back and saying, I’m not the only one doing it. We’re all doing this together. It’s a positive thing. It doesn’t automatically mean, you know, you have any kind of label around your alcohol consumption, but we’re being curious about how this is showing up for us.
So you talked about a couple of things that I really want to dig into. When we participate in Dry January, we go the 31 days, cutting back on alcohol and examining the impact that it’s having, what are some benefits, either mentally, physically, after the end of that experience?
Teri: So it depends on if people really are able to go 31 days not drinking, you’re going to have different effects than if you cut way back.
Like, let’s say you have your couple glasses of wine every night, which is perfect. Very common. And let’s say you decide I’m only going to drink once a week. You’re going to experience some benefits for sure. Because anytime we take what is basically a toxin out of our system, we’re going to feel better.
Uh, and if you are able to go 31 days with no alcohol, you’re going to exponentially feel even better. And so one of the things I think is really powerful is just notice if it feels challenging. To not drink. That’s one of the first things that happened for me was I thought, well, I’ll take a break and cut back because I realized that, you know, I was drinking more than I wanted to.
I was feeling kind of crappy a lot of mornings. I just didn’t like that. My brain kept saying, well, when’s the next drink? When’s the next drink? So when I tried to cut back, that’s when I realized, oh, this might be a little bit more of an issue than I thought. So I think inviting people to just get really curious about, is this, A challenge for me.
Is this feel hard? Am I feeling more cravings mentally, physically? And so I think that is a really important part of this. And then once we do cut back, we’re going to start seeing things like we’re going to have more energy. We’re going to have less anxiety. One thing that people don’t often realize is that alcohol creates more anxiety because of the adrenaline and cortisol releases in our body.
And so sometimes we think, well, when I drink, I feel less anxiety or I drink because I’m stressed. And initially because alcohol is both a stimulant and a depressant, we do get a little bit of that buzzy euphoric feeling. And we might feel like, Oh, I’m not so stressed, but that lasts a very short period of time.
And then the depressive. Parts of alcohol last much, much longer. So we’re actually Increasing anxiety when we drink so people often notice. Wow, my mood feels a little lighter they’re gonna notice things like potentially within a couple of weeks, you’ll have hopefully better sleep and We’re going to notice less brain fog lots of different effects.
Laurie: That’s really interesting the beginning of your comment was depending on what the goal is. Is it to abstain completely? Is it to cut back? Can we talk a little bit about how to realistically set a goal for dry January and what that might look like?
Teri: Yeah, I love this question. This is so good because I like to think of rather than setting a goal, which sometimes looks like very black and white, you know, I succeeded if I made it 30 days, I failed because I only made it 10 days and then I had a drink.
I like to help people set an intention and an intention allows us to have sort of, how do I want to feel? What is my motivation behind taking a break? And so for people to be successful, I think it’s really powerful to bring in some curiosity because curiosity helps us suspend judgment. And what I love about this is you said, I want to participate in Dry January.
I would ask to tell me why. And you might say, well, I hear there’s a lot of benefits to cutting out drinking and I’ve been drinking a little bit more than I want to, or I’m noticing that. I’m thinking about alcohol more than I want to. And so we can start right there and say, well, great. How do you want to feel at the end of January?
And you’d say, Oh, I want to feel proud of myself. I want to feel motivated to take on more health challenges. I want to sleep better. I want to be able to go to the ladies book club and say, no, thank you when they pass the wine. So I think those are all really important things to bring in. So we’ve taken it from a very black and white, I’m going to go 31 days without drinking alcohol into something that is personal to you, the individual.
And that can make a huge difference in how we follow through with that stated goal.
Laurie: I do see this too with eating and creating these food rules and things and they start out with black and white, I’m going to do this, I’m not going to do this. And then three days in, if something is such an ingrained habit that they didn’t even realize, and it’s so.
It’s hard for them to not do the thing they want to do or to do the thing they don’t want to do. It becomes a failure point and it’s completely devastating mentally and it throws off the whole experience. Then they’re quote unquote starting over, they failed. So I love that you’re saying, look at the intention.
How do you want to feel? Let’s Let’s reverse engineer this process from where you want to end up instead of trying to power through something that might not really be a good fit for you. And it might actually set you up to be worse off than maybe you are now. And, and really feeling worse about yourself, about the whole thing.
So I love that you’re, you’re reframing it as a, an intention versus a hard and fast goal of XYZ, I’m going to do this, I’m not going to do this. So I love that. Let’s talk about some of the misconceptions that people might have about participating in Dry January.
Teri: I think a lot of times people will have a mindset that if I can take 30 or 31 days off, that means I don’t have a drinking problem.
I’m going to prove to myself that this is not an issue. And what I find sometimes is you can go probably 30 days with just willpower. You can avoid all the usual places. You can suffer through this idea of depriving yourself. And then on February 1st, let’s bring out the cocktails because I did it. Let’s celebrate with alcohol.
This is something that. people will do because they are not building in the tools behind the taking a break. So we can change our behavior for a short period of time, but [00:14:00] willpower, as we know, will run out. And so it’s really important to have The mindset, the habit change, the intention, you know, the routines to get support in all of these areas if we want to make this more successful and we want to come out the other end, you know, saying, wow, I learned a lot about my relationship with alcohol.
I’m more curious in these ways. I have some maybe work to do over here. I felt really good. Um, and so, you know, If you’re considering dry January, I invite you to just look at the why, you know, am I trying to prove I don’t have a drinking problem? Well, anytime we ask is alcohol a problem for me, that’s a clue, right?
And so if that’s you, if you’re saying, wow, you know, maybe. This is a problem. I invite you to reverse that. Instead of asking, do I have a problem with [00:15:00] alcohol? Ask yourself, is alcohol adding anything to my life? Is alcohol serving me? Is alcohol making my life better? And that again is just an open ended curious question that allows us to say, huh, yeah.
Maybe it’s not. Maybe it used to be fun. And now I find myself drinking even though I don’t want to. And so we might think that dry January is this proving to ourself that, you know, I’m okay. And the reason I started there, Laurie, about your question is because a lot of clients have shared this with me.
Like I told myself, if I could take a month off, then all bets were off. I’m fine. And so I think the other misconception is that you’re, you have to go 31 days. Or that February 1st is now the goal. And so I invite you to stay mindful throughout the 31 days. Oh, I drank [00:16:00] on day seven. Oh, I drank on day nine.
Oh, I didn’t drink again until January 27th. And pay attention to those times when you felt like I really want to drink or I must drink, you know, or it just happened that I found myself with a drink in my hand. Like these are things that we can use during the month that look very different than the myth of I’m going to get through 31 days with, you know, no problem or to prove something to myself.
And it’s also really powerful to just allow that if you have, we call them data points. So if you have a drink, it’s information. What happened? Like if you’re running a marathon and you trip on mile three, you don’t start back at mile one. You just keep going. And so it’s helpful to drop the myth that if I have a drink, oh, well, I’m like half the other population.
I drank on day 10. It’s over. No. Use that information to guide you in the next 20 days.
Laurie: That’s really helpful, Teri, and I love that you mentioned your data points, because I was just going to say, I remember from our past conversation, instead of having that all or nothing, black or white, oops, I tripped and fell, it’s over, I’m starting from the beginning, approach it with curiosity, look at the situation, what were the conditions, what was the environment, what was the mindset, and then just look at that information and see what you can pull out of there.
I love that. One of the things that might be a challenge for somebody is that They are approaching Dry January. They want to participate. They don’t know anybody else who’s doing it. They don’t have a support group. They don’t have a bunch of friends that they can hang out with.
Teri: Well, I think what you’re mentioning here, Laurie, is really powerful is to have some support outside of ourself.
You know, one of the things that, uh, comes up when I’m working with clients around this journey is we spend a lot of time beating ourselves up in our own head. And so we could start to create a lot of stories around, oh, it’s not going well, or you’re never going to be able to do this. But when we’re in a group, we have the other person saying, I believe in you, I’m cheering you on, this is going well, you’re doing it.
And so it is so helpful to be in community during dry January, and it’s not hard to find a dry January community. There are going to be lots of opportunities. So I think we just start with asking Google, you know, what is available in my area? You could do it online. You can do it maybe in person. There might be a blended atmosphere where people say, hey, We’re going to have, um, hiking every Saturday morning during dry January so that you have a reason to get up at 6 a.m. Or 7 a. m. As opposed to, oh, you know, I drank on Friday night and now I, I’m going to sleep until 11 and I didn’t make the running group. So setting up a little accountability and a little companionship is really helpful. Laura McCowan has a group called The Luckiest Club. You can join that. I think it’s very inexpensive, $25 a month or something, and you could join that for dry January.
There’s free smart recovery groups, uh, that will be featuring some things for dry January. I did my first dry January as a leader, not an individual. And I guess I did my first dry January without even thinking about it in 2016 because I wasn’t drinking by then. But in 2020, I worked with This Naked Mind in their live alcohol experiment for January, and there was about 3, 000 individuals that came at that time who wanted to go through a 30 day program.
It’s very inexpensive, uh, to have coaching support, to see other people also experiencing this. One of the things that can happen, Laurie, is when we are drinking and overdrinking or drinking more than we want to, or questioning our drinking, we often think we’re the only one. And so when we see other people say, Oh yeah, you know, somehow five o’clock is really hard, or I do great, you know, Sunday through Tuesday.
And then what is it about Wednesday? And so when we have this support, it helps us get out of our own way. And helps us, you know, again, have that accountability and that support where other people are also going through the same thing. And we don’t feel so isolated. One of the other things I’ll say about having some accountability or some support is, uh, if you Don’t tell anyone, then no one knows if you’re doing well, no one is noticing.
No one’s cheering you on. Um, for example, I just recently, um, have been going through a health challenge of my own, so I had some food sensitivity tests and I can’t eat eggs right now and I can’t have dairy. And so I was talking to my daughter about a recipe to make some Christmas cookies and she was like, “Mom, You can’t make that. It has butter!” And I was like “Oh, you’re right!” But if no one knew I was trying to cut out dairy, I could just go about my business and pretend it wasn’t really happening. You know, and my brain, because we’re humans, we want to avoid discomfort, seek pleasure. I don’t make the cookies with butter and pretend I don’t have, I’m not supposed to be giving up dairy.
So some of that. External accountability is really helpful to just be like, Oh yeah, it’s like going to the gym and you’re in a group class versus going to the gym and just looking around and saying, well, I’ll do five minutes on the treadmill or I’ll lift the five pound weight. But when you’re in the group, it’s very different.
The instructor saying, pick up those 10 pound weights. You know, do this, do that. So use that as a motivation to help you through this dry January.
Laurie: So don’t do a secret dry January, make it, share it, share it with those around you so that they can help you, cheer you on, be those extra eyeballs and ears and shoulders.
Teri: And remind you of your, of your intention, like, gosh, you know, um, Let’s go for a walk. You don’t need a glass of wine right now. Let’s take a walk. And if you still want a glass of wine, have a glass of wine. But, you know, having that, I love the word secret. Yeah. Don’t, you know, save the secret Santa for December and have an out loud, public dry January.
Laurie: Loud and proud dry January. I love that.
Teri: People want to know, like, what do I tell people about not drinking? So dry January is awesome because people just say, Oh, I’m doing dry January. And everybody’s like, Oh, okay. It’s not that you have a problem. Everybody’s doing dry January. We touched
Laurie: on this a little bit, but maybe we can dig in a little bit more.
You said over here in the no fun corner. Right? So if we start to feel like, oh my gosh, if I take out drinking, what am I going to do?
Teri: Yeah, there is a huge myth out there, Lori, that sober is boring. And I like to say if sober is boring, you’re doing it wrong. Because what we realize is that we have. often built alcohol into all of the activities.
I mean, for example, you know, oh, we’re going to go on a picnic. Oh, get that special bottle of rosé so I can drink during the day. Oh, we’re going to baby shower. Well, we have to have mimosas, you know, oh gosh, we’re going to have pizza and watch the game. I need a beer. And so, What we’ve done is we’ve really trained ourselves to rely on alcohol, and then we see alcohol as the fun factor, but that’s not true.
Uh, I had a client who was very concerned in her mind. She thought, well, if I give up alcohol, you know, what really bothers me is I have this memory that I was in Italy and I was sitting out on the terrace with my husband and looking over the vineyards and the little old wizened old winemaker came out with this very special old bottle and he poured us this drink and it was magic.
You know, the moment was magical and I, I just can’t imagine never experiencing that again. And so what I told her was, I said, okay, so let’s imagine this. Let’s look at that bottle of wine that he poured for you. And I want you to think about taking that bottle of wine into your closet. And I want you to sit in the dark and close the door and have a drink of wine.
And then I want you to come out of the closet metaphorically and imagine being on this terrace in Italy. And. You can smell the flowers, you’re experiencing the warm afternoon sun, it’s a beautiful vista, you are sitting across from your husband who you are just gazing into his eyes thinking this moment is so magical, and the little old wizened man comes out and he pours you this special juice that they make from these old apples.
And you toast each other and you think, I’m, this moment is magical. So tell me, Laurie in that moment, was it the wine? Or was it the experience? So when we think about, you know, well, I have to have alcohol to have fun. We have to ask ourselves, is that true? What happened when I was 10 and I was running around in the backyard playing with my friends and we were playing doorbell ditch and laughing and hoping we didn’t get caught or running through the sprinklers.
Where is that person? That person is still inside of us. We just decided that we needed alcohol. So we had fun at some point in our life without alcohol and we can get there again and much of it is a mindset shift.
Laurie: Absolutely true. I love that. February 1st, Dry January is over.
Teri: Now what? First of all, February 1st is not the, you know, you don’t put the key in the lock and now I’m out of jail.
Imagine February 1st as the time to just ease into the information that you’ve gained and allow yourself to say. Okay. Wow. You know, that was really interesting. And now I’m at a new place. Now I have more information. I have new experiences and I really want to see what this means moving forward. And for many people, it will be a place of new awareness around the impact that alcohol has been having.
And, you know, I have lots of clients that come to me and they say, well, you know, I’m here at this place where I’m drinking more than I want to, that, you know, things are happening that I don’t like, I don’t feel as good. Now that I’m older, perhaps, you know, alcohol is having more of an impact. But they say, I don’t want to stop drinking forever.
And so, you know, this is a really important awareness when we say, well, what are the benefits of alcohol? If we took alcohol out for a month and we felt better and we found socializing wasn’t as hard and we enjoyed the community aspect. that. Do we really want to go back to putting a toxin in our body on a regular basis or every day?
So, you know, I invite people on February 1st to explore. Well, what does it mean? And one of the best ways I think to do this is to journal and to really write down like, okay, here’s how I felt during this month. Here is the good, the bad, the ugly. And what do I want to do with this information? Uh, you know, really design Your February rather than just default into the old patterns.
And that again, takes some intention. And so while dry January, it might be like, uh, people think, well, it’s a month without alcohol. What if it’s a month exploring your relationship with alcohol? And then there’s more to do maybe in February and March and April.
Laurie: I love that Teri, because you said January doesn’t have to just be a month without alcohol.
It could actually be a month with …Whatever we’ve been not doing because of alcohol, what are some activities or, or things have you been putting off or not interested in doing or not had time for because you’ve been doing all of these events or activities that are based on alcohol, what can you kind of fill in and explore and try?
And maybe that becomes things that you do in February. And I like that you were talking about journaling because then it gives you a chance to revisit who you were on January 1st, why you started it, what were you thinking, how are you feeling, and be able to look back and revisit. Each of these different points, maybe you did have a drink, what was going on, it’s so much, it’s so much easier to recall and go back to that when you’ve written it down.
Ask me how I know. Instead of trying to like remember and just kind of think at the end, like, Hmm, how did that go? Well, guess what?
Teri: I don’t remember. You know, Annie Grace does have the 30-Day Alcohol Experiment as a book. So that’s a good resource as well. It’s not a journal, but there’s questions and there’s, you know, a 30 days, like each day it talks about something different, like alcohol and socializing, alcohol and anger.
Laurie: That’s a great resource. I’m glad you mentioned it. I will put the link to that in the show notes as well. Terry, we’re going to wrap up and I was hoping that you could give us your top three tips for participating in Dry January.
Teri: Tip # 1, I’m going to take a page from your playbook and say, write down your intention.
What do I want to experience during the month of January? Why? How will I know if I was successful? And I invite you to redefine success. So I’ll know because I was I was paying attention. I brought in awareness. I asked questions. I made new choices like those types of things. So I invite people to really explore Their intention and their why behind taking a 30 day break and then write that down.
And that can be the very first tip is to set that intention in writing. How do I want to feel? What is my motivation for doing dry January? And then the second tip would be, ask some questions when you feel like drinking. What am I thinking alcohol will provide in this moment? Am I thinking that, oh, I’m feeling a little social anxiety and alcohol will help, or I’m bored, or I’m lonely, or I feel sad? stressed?
All of these things are going to be really powerful to start to untangle where alcohol started to become our go to.
And then the third thing that we touched on is that community aspect. Don’t do this. In secret share with someone you maybe you’re not a joiner. You don’t want to join a big group although I invite you to consider it but have some support somewhere [00:31:00] so that you have someone cheering you on someone to help keep you accountable And someone to share some of these thoughts with because if this is brand new for you, there’s going to be a lot going on because our brain has defaulted to alcohol perhaps for a long time.
And so you deserve to have that support You know, the NA beverage, the non alcoholic beverage industry is really growing. So have some fun with maybe some mocktails or some special hop water or some kombucha or some teas. Enjoy having an adult beverage. If you had a ritual of pouring a drink every night, just change what’s in the glass and allow yourself to just say, wow, it feels really different when I have that sparkling tea versus my, you know, my, uh, hard cider and enjoy that. There’s so many resources out there and you’re going to find a lot more popping up as we get closer to January. So have fun with that.
Laurie: That’s a really good tip to have something prepared, have a plan for when you normally would have something, swap it in with something else, try it out.
Those are great tips, Teri.
Teri: I don’t have something specific to Dry January, but I do have a program that I’ve recently created called Stop Drinking in Your 50s and Beyond. And it is a six week program. And in that program, it’s a self paced program. And so, uh, it, what it is, is for Every week you have five days of activities and then two days of application.
So on three days a week, you have a short video, no more than 10 minutes. And then one day a week, you have a journal prompt. And one day a week, you have kind of a tactic to work on. And so I really believe that to make this a journey that is successful, you need to have knowledge, application and some tools.
Laurie: Teri, I’m going to be putting all of your links into the show notes and I really do appreciate that you shared your new program information with us and I’m going to be putting the link to that if anybody wants to learn more. You’re on social? Yes. Okay, perfect. I’ll be putting those in the show notes with all of your information so our listeners can connect with you in all of the different places where you are.
Thank you, Teri.
Teri: Yes. Thank you, Laurie. And good luck to all of your listeners if you decide to try Dry January. I’m cheering you on.
In this episode ‘The Healing Power of yoga’ Tashya Knight, certified health educator, health coach, and yoga instructor shares her journey into healing power of yoga, emphasizing its role in her wellness and the surprising benefits she experienced.
The discussion covers the physical and mental health benefits of a regular yoga practice, busting yoga myths and highlighting its impact on physical, mental and emotional health.
Tashya elaborates on the importance of self-acceptance, self-confidence, and spending time with yourself in yoga. We dive into Tashya’s approach to yoga as a healing practice, particularly in addressing trauma and promoting breath awareness and how finding the right yoga style, teacher, and studio are important to create a positive and welcoming experience.
Key Takeaways
• The power of Yoga as a Holistic Wellness Practice – it’s not just as a physical activity but a holistic practice affecting mental and emotional well-being.
• A regular yoga practice has diverse health benefits including stress management, anxiety reduction, improved sleep, lower cortisol levels, enhanced cardiovascular health, and even potential relief from migraines
• It’s important to approach yoga with an open mind and curiosity. Each person’s body is unique, and yoga should be personalized to meet individual needs. Modifications and variations are encouraged, promoting a sense of self-acceptance and self-confidence
• Restorative yoga is a practice focused on rest and relaxation. The poses involve the use of props and aim to calm the nervous system, providing an opportunity for deep relaxation and self-care
Quotes
“I can’t imagine my life without yoga. I can’t imagine not sharing this with other people and helping them to calm their anxiety. It’s helped me with my depression. It has helped me with stress.”
“Yes, it is slow because it’s asking you to slow down. You’ve lived your life in a form of, you know, whatever goes on in your daily life, taking some time to yourself.”
“[Your practice] is all about you, and it’s yours. So finding ways to use breath allows you to find ways to get quiet, to slow down, to take a minute that’s just yours.”
“Restorative yoga is it’s just really a time to rest your mind and rest your body, which I think is something we all need in our time right now where we’re constantly on the go.”
Tashya hosts a virtual Saturday morning restorative yoga class, so no matter where you are, you can join Tashya at 10am Eastern for an hour of self-care as you start your weekend.
Tashya is a former educator with a Bachelor’s in Education and a Master’s in Health Promotion. After finishing her degree, she became a certified health education specialist (CHES). Combining this with her health coaching certification she has created programs, curriculums, lessons, and experiences on the subject matters of mindfulness, yoga, wellness, SEL, self-care, and empowerment.
Enrolling in a yoga teacher training allowed Tashya to do the hard work of healing herself by applying yoga philosophy, meditation, and aspects of her wellness coaching. She removed herself from toxic behaviors and relationships. Using her own experiences, she has been able to create programs that empower women to thrive as their best selves.
After leaving the classroom, Tashya worked for several different non-profit organizations teaching kids cooking classes, nutrition education, social emotional learning skills, girl’s empowerment, yoga, mindfulness, and self-care practices. She is a professionally trained and certified health coach and yoga instructor.
Tashya is a passionate advocate for promoting wellness and empowering young people and adults to know their worth and practice self-care on a daily basis. She currently resides in Brooklyn, NY where she continues to teach yoga, coach clients, and write about various wellness topics.
Laurie: Welcome everyone. Today I am talking to Tasha Knight, who you may recall has been a guest on the show already, but this time she’s back to talk to us about the benefits of a regular yoga practice. Now you might also remember that Tasha is a former teacher turned certified health educator, health coach, and yoga instructor. And she discovered yoga while she was working on her master’s degree in health promotion. And now she’s on a mission to empower individuals who are interested in taking a more holistic approach to their wellness journey. Welcome back, Tasha.
Tashya: Thank you, Laurie.
Laurie: What I would like to do is start with kind of like your backstory and how you got into yoga and definitely like your journey to becoming a yoga teacher. Can you tell us about that?
Tashya: Yes, absolutely. I actually came to yoga through meditation first. People usually come to yoga first and then find their way to meditation. But I was in grad school and my master’s is in health promotion. And I had one semester, we had an entire class on meditation. So we were learning the philosophy.
We were learning background and all of that. And we had to practice different types of meditation. So I started practicing the meditations. This is not about meditation, but the usual thoughts, I can’t do meditation. I can’t say it and had a lot of misconceptions about it. really began to understand and dive into it a little bit more.
And then from that started a meditation practice and then thought, Hey, maybe I should do a yoga class. So I took a couple of yoga classes and I actually wrote a blog post about this on my website. I didn’t like yoga and I didn’t think that I could do yoga. And I thought like, I can’t slow down. I can’t sit still. I can’t get quiet. I’d rather do a different type of movement, something a little more hardcore. Because I had been practicing the meditation, I found that when I showed up to the yoga class, it, I was able to practice it. I was able to connect to the breath and find that because I had learned how to slow down in the meditation.
Did I ever think I was going to be a yoga teacher? No. If you had asked me ten years ago, that wouldn’t even have been on my list of goals or aspirations. For some reason, I just felt like that was the next step for me. I was already a health coach. I had already gotten the degree in health promotion. I was already, you know, helping people and being of service in that way.
And then I started getting ads for this yoga program that was specifically for educators. And as you know, Laurie, I used to be a teacher. And so I thought, of course, I’ll go learn how to be a yoga teacher around my people, around other educators. And that’s what I found myself doing. So I ended up taking a yoga teacher training that was specifically for educators, very social, emotional learning based learning, how to incorporate that into your classes.
And I loved it. And I started to dive more into the philosophy and more into deepening my yoga practice, deepening my meditation practice, learning how to breathe better and all of that. And now I can’t imagine my life without yoga. I can’t imagine not sharing this. with other people and helping them to calm their anxiety.
It’s helped me with my depression. It has helped me with stress. It has helped me to just calm down in a world where I am constantly busy, busy, go, go, go. And this has just given me another tool for self care and to feel better in my life.
Laurie: Okay, so you already dipped your toe here into my next question, which is how can a yoga practice contribute to overall better health? And you mentioned some things that have been helpful for you. People may have a like a preconception about yoga, which is you go, you do some stretches, you lay on a mat. How does this help? But some very specific studies have been done on how yoga can help you physically and mentally. I just want to make sure people are aware of that.
Yoga has been shown to help lower cortisol levels, which is a stress hormone. So it helps with stress management, which is a huge factor in improving mental health. It’s also been shown to reduce anxiety and depression symptoms. It has been shown to help reduce chronic pain, reducing chronic inflammation.
It’s also been shown that it can help with your cardiovascular health, and this is amazing that it actually can impact your heart rate, your blood pressure, your cholesterol. It’s also been shown to help you sleep better, and because a lot of yoga practices incorporate breathing, it can actually make your lungs stronger.
So it might help if you have any kind of chronic lung conditions. And then the last thing I’ll note is that it has been shown to help with migraines. So if migraines are something that you struggle with, there’s a study that has shown that yoga may help to reduce the number of migraine headaches that you are experiencing. I think that’s amazing that all of this can be done through yoga. What are some other ways that yoga can really improve physical and mental health when you have a regular practice?
Tashya: Well, I think that it, um, allows you to spend time with yourself, right? So it improves your self acceptance. I think it improves your self confidence, right? Because your. listening to yourself, right? Like when I say, I say often at the beginning of a class is I’m just your guide, you know, your body and your mind’s better than I do. So what you need to do to make yoga, it’s all about you and it’s yours. So finding ways to use breath, right? Connecting your breath to your movement It allows you to find ways to get quiet, to slow down, to take a minute, right? That’s just yours. It also allows you to move your body in certain ways.
And I know that we have spoken before about trauma, and it allows you to move some of that through your body. It builds a more, um, stable foundation for yourself, helping you with balance, helping you with flexibility, with mobility.
And as we start to get older, um, we, some of that gets a little lost, right? So helping to build that strength and helping to build that balance and flexibility and mobility for yourself is really important for physical health. And it’s important for emotional and mental health because you’re doing that check in.
You’re taking time to listen to what’s coming up for you. And then hopefully not brushing that aside or stepping it down, hopefully taking some time to, um, bring that in. There’s more aspects of yoga than just the movement, right? There’s the meditation, there’s the breath work, there’s the learning to sit.
There’s also the living in your values. How are you showing up off the mat? And that’s a whole nother class in itself. So I won’t dive into that. So maybe that’s a, uh, another interview, but, um, I just think that it helps you in so many different ways in showing up for your life and connecting to who you truly are.
Laurie: I love that.
Tashya: I just really want to use yoga as a healing practice more so than a workout. Thinking from a trauma informed lens, how can we use yoga as a way to move our trauma through our body? Because we store it, I don’t know if you’ve ever read the book, The Body Keeps Score, by Bessel Van Der Kolk. And talks a lot about how we are not able to process the trauma. Whether it is repressed memories, and sometimes it’s not even that. We know the trauma happened, we remember the trauma happened, but we don’t allow ourselves to deal with it. It’s more of a like, okay, that happened, stuff it down, move on. We wonder why our bodies are sick, our minds are sick. And so we wonder why that is.
And it’s because we’ve allowed that all to be trapped in. So my goal with yoga is finding a way to use it into connecting to your breath, moving your body. Yes, it stretches you, which is very important, but also using that just to learn how to breathe better, how to, you know, cause meditation is part of yoga and how to calm our nervous system down. How to find a way to cope with our stressors. That’s a little bit more healthier than some other avenues. That is really how I approach yoga. A lot of people are like, Oh, it’s too slow. So I don’t want it as my workout. Yes, it is slow because it’s asking you to slow down. You’ve lived your life in a form of, you know, whatever goes on in your daily life, taking some time to yourself.
So, you know one of my big things is about finding self care for us. And it doesn’t just mean. Put on a sheet face mask and take a bubble bath or, um, it can be, I mean, I do those things. Not right now. It’s a little hot these days, but you know, once it becomes colder and winter, that’s definitely something I enjoy.
But finding one hour in your day where You sit with yourself, or you have that gentle movement, or you are working on your breath, or you’re thinking about some of the topics or, um, statements that maybe I bring up during the class as you’re moving, that is you taking care of yourself. That is you giving yourself self care.
That is you giving yourself love by allowing that one hour of slow down in that one hour of just you. We focus more on the movement of the body in yoga and the breath is really what’s so important. Something that I say to folks who are runners or cyclists, or they do something a little bit more of a high intensity workout rather than yoga, working on your breath helps you to have endurance for that. It allows you to stay in those workouts longer because you can recover your breath quicker because you’ve learned how to deepen that inhale and exhale so you can stay in that exercise a little bit longer than if you were breathing more shallow.
So that’s also another point that I like to bring up to people who tell me that they, you know “I can’t do yoga” or “I don’t like yoga and I don’t want to do it” and I’m like “Do you do others sports or other movement? because this breath alone will help you to feel stronger in that as well.”
Laurie: That’s a really good point.
Tashya: I think that’s something people don’t realize that, that breathing is such a big part of a yoga practice. When you’re talking to people about yoga and they tell you “Oh, I can’t do yoga. I tried it. I don’t like it.”
Laurie: What’s kind of like your number one tip for getting into a consistent yoga practice?
Tashya: The different styles are very important for yoga. And I also think a yoga studio and yoga teacher is really important because, um, If you go to a class and you already have those preconceived notions, right, of not wanting to do the yoga or having something about yoga already in your mind and not being for you or you’re not good at it, when you go and you find a teacher that is really welcoming or a teacher that makes yoga accessible, right, that normalizes using props, or normalizes you listening to your body and you figuring out what works for you. Nobody shows up to a class of any kind and knows everything the first day. When I used to teach, I would say to students, like, you all didn’t show up to kindergarten, knowing everything. You all didn’t show up to third grade knowing all the answers, right? That’s why you’re here. The same applies to yoga, right?
So when I hear people say, “Oh, I’m not good at yoga”. Oh, neither was I. And you don’t have to be good at yoga. That’s not what it is. And something I like to say often is it’s a practice. So you’re always going to be evolving, you’re always going to be learning something new in yoga if you have an open mind.
And I think that’s really one of the most important things, is showing up with an open mind. Taking all of these other misconceptions or myths about yoga and placing them to the side. And just allowing yourself to be open minded on, how could this help me? What could I learn from this? Going in with that beginner’s mind and what is my mind saying to me? What is my body saying? How is my breath helping?
Keeping that open mind as you go in and finding a teacher who you vibe with. You are not going to walk into every yoga studio and vibe with every single teacher there. You can walk into a studio and only find one teacher you like. You could walk into a studio and not find any teacher you like.
And the style of class also matters. My tip is play around. Go to a few classes, try a few different teachers out, try a few different styles out, and have that open mind, and allow yourself to absorb what is being said, what is being done, what is being taught, and then make your decision from there.
Laurie: I’m going to share my, my experience with yoga, which is kind of like what you just described in that, you know, I tried it when it was really popular. I went with friends to a class and I was really intimidated. I am not bendy. I am not flexible. I was just really embarrassed because I couldn’t do. any of the moves. Like you said, you don’t go, you don’t show up on the first day knowing everything or being, being able to do everything. But that’s kind of how I felt that not being able to do any of that made me feel like I shouldn’t be there. So I went to yoga. I wasn’t good at it. So I stopped doing yoga. So when you don’t do yoga, you’re not good at yoga. So, you can’t expect to be good at yoga when you don’t do it. That math doesn’t math, right?
So, I love your advice of being willing to approach this with curiosity, like, how could this work for me? What styles appeal to me? What is it that I like about yoga and what is it that I want to get out of it?
And then, I think it was probably about five or six years ago, I went with a friend to a beer yoga class. It was just supposed to be fun. I like beer. I like my friend. I’ll go. I’ll hang out on my mat while whatever. It was a really big class in the brewery and It was this teacher said something to me that flipped the switch. We’re doing something I’m over here. Like, I don’t know, maybe it was triangle or it was a warrior pose. And I was sucking at it, hardcore. And she said “listen to your body, do this If it feels good in your body” And I was like “Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, wait a second….“
Because I had gone in with a very black or white “here’s how you do a move. If it looks like this, you’re doing it right. If it doesn’t look like this, you’re doing it wrong.” But she’s telling me, I can modify this for what works with my body. And that was like a light bulb went off over my head. I was like, I can do yoga for my body. I can approach this in a way that, that works for me. And after that, I was hooked. I was like, okay, I can now give myself the space and allow myself to be a beginner and to be, and to learn and to, to grow in a practice.
Tashya: So I love that that is your advice to kind of, you know, approach it with a curiosity and a willingness to, to just do what works for your body. I love that you had that experience with that teacher, because that means that teacher was. welcoming, made it accessible, spoke to you as a person rather than, I’m at the front of the room, I know what’s going on, and this is how yoga is supposed to be.
That teacher made it about you, and that is what yoga is. The truth is, all of our bodies are built differently. All of our flexibility is different. Our mobility is different. Just our bodies in general, our bone structure, it’s all different. I’m really glad that even though you gave up on it for a little bit, that you still had an open mind and you went to another class and you found a teacher who embodied what yoga actually is.
Kindness, compassion, letting people be themselves, and tapping into who they are, rather than being at the front of the room telling you how you are supposed to be.
Laurie: Maybe the beer helped, right? It kind of loosened me up.
Tashya: Also that, sure. Yeah, it probably did.
Laurie: Um, but it was just like, I just felt like I finally had permission to just do yoga for me.
Tashya:I have a yoga client who comes every Saturday morning to my virtual class and for the past few years. And when I first, a few years ago before she came to the first class, when we were messaging about it and she said “I can’t do yoga. I’m not good at yoga.” I said to her “well, you don’t have to be good. Just show up.”
She now comes every week, if she took a vacation or, you know, during holidays when we don’t have class, she’ll say the following week, you know, I missed it. My body can feel that I didn’t do it. She can feel that she missed a class and she doesn’t want to miss a class. So I just think back to, and I’ve watched her also improve, in how she approaches the poses and how her flexibility has grown and her willingness to evolve her practice has grown and I’ve watched all of that and I just think back to the first initial speaking with her.” I’m not good at it I don’t think I can do it” and then now too It is part of her weekly routine and she she is there and I love that Improvement for her.
I just love watching that and one of my other favorite stories that I like to talk about is I started teaching restorative back in January, and at first I said, “no, I don’t know how to teach restorative. I can’t do that.” And I also was like, “and that’s too slow. We’re just laying here in restorative. That’s not my bag.” And the more I started teaching it, I’m hearing from the students at the end of class, thank you so much for that. That’s exactly what I needed. I feel so good now I’m going to go home and get some rest.
Like, and I could see the change in their posture and in their body and I could see it in their faces that at the end of class that was exactly what they needed. And that also changed my view of restorative and and allowing myself touse restorative as a healing practice. So I was already versed in a flow.
I already had my own practice, but even as a yoga teacher, I still had some type of misconception and I had to come in with an open mind and curiosity, as you said before, and so I love seeing that evolving as the more people practice. Can you talk a little bit more about restorative yoga? Just kind of like a description of what it is.
Restorative yoga, you’re only going to do about five or six poses throughout the whole class and you’re using props. So you’re using a bolster, blanket, blocks, a strap, whatever it is. And you’re using that as a support. So restorative is rest. You are using these, and you’re holding a pose for six or seven minutes, and you’re just allowing that prop to support you.
You’re allowing your mind to really relax. And you talked about something earlier when you were, uh, um, citing those studies. And with restorative, it is really calming your heart. It is calming your nervous system because you are sinking into this. You are deepening your inhale and exhale. There’s no stress being put on your body.
There’s no stress being put on your mind. It’s just allowing you that freedom to just slow down to come to a full stop and to just rest. And so then when you’re learning to breathe and you’re learning to find that support, when you go into a stressful situation, you can pull those tools back out.
Restorative yoga is it’s just really a time to rest your mind and rest your body, which I think is something we all need in our time right now where we’re constantly on the go and just giving ourselves that time to just really rest. So Tasha, right now you teach a virtual class on Saturday mornings, which is a gentle flow.
Laurie: Talk to us a little bit about your virtual classes.
Tashya: I had first started that it was going to be for beginners, people who are new to yoga. But then as I started to teach, I evolved my virtual class to be more of a gentle flow rather than just for beginners. We’re not going to be doing any handstands. It’s really just starting your Saturday morning very gently, breathing, doing some gentle movement, waking up your body, right, because we all know by Saturday morning, it’s really hard to get up and it’s really hard to get the day going. And so how can you just. Find that time to ease into the day. Also giving yourself an hour of self care at the end of the week.
Maybe Saturday is the start of your week. I don’t know. What is it that you can do that’s just for an hour on a Saturday morning, very gentle to wake yourself up. The reason why I like it being virtual is that it’s very accessible to everyone. You could roll out of bed at 9 45 and click on the Zoom link at 10 a.m. and you’re there. No one’s looking at you. You don’t have to show up in a certain way, wearing certain leggings. It doesn’t matter. You can be in your pajamas in, uh, in sweatpants. Just coming there and just finding that nice way to wake up. You could be anywhere. A lot of my clients who come on Saturdays have not been in New York City. They’ve been in other states. But it’s easy because it’s on Zoom and there’s no stress or pressure to leave your house, to get dressed, to go somewhere when you can just do it right from your own home and feel comfortable. Right now, Saturday morning is the only virtual that I have, but I have been wanting to add some evening classes.
Tashya: So an evening virtual flow, you know, gently after work, and then also a restorative. So now I’m kind of putting feelers out to see if there’s some interest in those. As my business expands and so hoping that eventually that those will be some offerings and I can also put in the evening because not everyone can come to a Saturday morning class and sometimes people prefer something in the evening, especially midweek with everything they have going on.
Laurie: Very good point. What I’m going to do, Tasha, and you’re going to be giving our listeners a coupon code for a free class so they can join you, try it out, see how they like it. I’m also going to be putting all of your information, like your website and your social links in the show notes so that our listeners can get in touch with you and follow you.
Laurie: Thank you so much for being with us today.
Tashya: I always enjoy talking to you and happy to come on again and talk about lots more wellness topics.
Is Recovery from Eating Disorders Using Intuitive Eating Possible?
In this episode I chat with Debbie Lesko, an anti-diet and eating disorder awareness activist, who shares her personal journey of recovery from an eating disorder and how she became an advocate for body positivity and intuitive eating. She emphasizes the importance of rejecting diet culture and the harmful effects of intentional weight loss. Debbie also discusses the benefits of embracing an anti-diet mindset, such as freedom from food restrictions, improved self-esteem, and a healthier relationship with your body. She provides practical tips for transitioning away from dieting, including changing language around food, cleaning up social media feeds, and finding joyful movement.
What’s in the episode:
Key Takeaways:
Reject diet culture and the labeling of food as “good” or “bad.”
Clean up your social media by unfollowing accounts that promote dieting or weight loss.
Get rid of clothes that don’t fit and buy clothes that make you feel comfortable and confident in your current body.
Quotes:
“Anti-diet means rejecting the idea that a diet is going to cure your self-esteem, your body image, your health.”
“All food has nutritional value, no matter what it is, and your body knows what to do with it.”
“Give up the fight for making your body a shape that you think is acceptable.”
Debbie Lesko is a 67-year-old grandmother and an eating disorder awareness and anti-diet fat liberation activist. She has been on a journey of recovery from her own eating disorder since she was eight years old. Debbie is the host of the “Diets Don’t Work” Facebook page, which is a community that supports and educates people looking to ditch the diet mindset and approach health without a harmful focus on weight.
In a world obsessed with weight loss and diet culture, it can be challenging to find a path to true health and well-being. But there is hope. Debbie Lesko, an anti-diet activist and eating disorder awareness advocate, is on a mission to help others break free from the harmful cycle of dieting and embrace a new way of approaching health. In our conversation, Debbie shares her personal journey to recovery and offers valuable insights into the benefits of ditching the diet mindset.
Finding Recovery: A Personal Journey
Debbie’s story is one of resilience and determination. From a young age, she was subjected to the harmful messages of diet culture, constantly being told that she needed to lose weight to be accepted and valued. This led to a lifelong battle with an eating disorder, with multiple hospitalizations and treatment centers along the way. But it wasn’t until 2017, when her job threatened her employment if she didn’t seek treatment, that Debbie realized she needed to make a change.
“I can’t leave my granddaughter,” Debbie recalls. “I can’t die. That would just hurt tremendously.” This realization became the turning point in her recovery journey. She sought treatment at Rosewood Eating Disorder Centers and immersed herself in various modalities, including intuitive eating and the Health at Every Size (HAES) approach. Through this process, Debbie discovered a new way of approaching food, movement, and self-acceptance.
The Anti-Diet Movement: Rejecting Diet Culture
Being anti-diet means rejecting the harmful messages of diet culture and embracing a new approach to health and well-being. It means letting go of the idea that weight loss is the key to happiness and self-worth. As Debbie explains, “Anti-diet does not mean anti-health. It’s pro-health.” It’s about focusing on nourishing your body and finding joy in movement, rather than obsessing over numbers on a scale or restrictive eating patterns.
One of the biggest pitfalls people face when trying to leave the diet mindset behind is the language they use around food. Debbie emphasizes the importance of eliminating labels like “good” or “bad” when it comes to food. “All food has nutritional value,” she says. “Your body knows what to do with it.” By reframing our thoughts and language around food, we can begin to develop a healthier relationship with eating and nourishing our bodies.
The Power of Community and Support
Recovering from an eating disorder and embracing an anti-diet mindset can be challenging, but Debbie emphasizes the importance of finding a supportive community. Through her Facebook page, “Diets Don’t Work,” Debbie curates a collection of posts and resources that promote body positivity, intuitive eating, and eating disorder awareness. The page has grown into a thriving community of over 4,500 members who share their experiences, ask questions, and support one another on their journeys to recovery.
Debbie also highlights the importance of cleaning up our social media feeds and surrounding ourselves with accounts that promote body positivity and reject diet culture. By curating our online spaces, we can create a more positive and supportive environment that aligns with our values and goals.
The Benefits of Ditching the Diet Mindset
So, what are the benefits of embracing an anti-diet mindset and rejecting the harmful messages of diet culture? Debbie shares three key benefits:
Freedom: By letting go of restrictive eating patterns and the obsession with weight loss, we can experience a newfound sense of freedom. No longer bound by the numbers on a scale or the rules of a diet, we can eat what we want when we want it, without guilt or shame.
Increased Brain Space: When we’re constantly focused on diets and weight loss, our minds become consumed by numbers and restrictions. By embracing an anti-diet mindset, we free up valuable brain space to focus on more important things, like spending time with loved ones, pursuing hobbies, and engaging in activities that bring us joy.
Improved Self-Esteem: Diet culture often leads to a negative body image and a constant battle with our own self-worth. By rejecting the idea that our bodies need to conform to a certain standard, we can develop a healthier and more positive relationship with ourselves. Respecting our bodies for what they are and what they can do, rather than how they look, can lead to a significant boost in self-esteem and overall well-being.
Looking ahead…
Ditching the diet mindset and embracing an anti-diet approach to health and well-being is a journey that requires commitment and self-compassion. But as Debbie’s story demonstrates, it is possible to find recovery and live a life free from the harmful cycle of dieting. By rejecting diet culture, reframing our thoughts and language around food, and surrounding ourselves with a supportive community, we can begin to embrace a new way of approaching health that focuses on nourishment, self-acceptance, and joy.
As the anti-diet movement continues to gain momentum, it is important that we challenge the harmful messages of diet culture and promote a more inclusive and compassionate approach to health. By sharing our stories, supporting one another, and advocating for change, we can create a world where everyone can embrace their bodies and live their lives to the fullest, free from the constraints of diet culture.
Let’s support Debbie in her mission to spread awareness about eating disorders, promote body positivity, and empower others to embrace an anti-diet mindset. Together, we can create a future where health is not defined by weight, but by the joy, nourishment, and self-acceptance that comes from living a life free from diet culture.
Frequently Asked Questions About Recovery, Anti-Diet Living & Letting Go of Diet Culture
1. Is recovery from an eating disorder possible at any age?
Yes. As Debbie shares in this episode, she found recovery at 63 years old—after decades of struggle and multiple treatment centers. Recovery is not limited by age. It’s never too late to heal your relationship with food, your body, or yourself.
2. What does it mean to be “anti-diet”?
Being anti-diet means rejecting restrictive eating, body shame, and weight-focused health messages. It’s not anti-health—it’s pro-health, pro-body autonomy, and pro-informed choice. It also means refusing to moralize food or tie your worth to your size.
3. Isn’t weight loss still a valid health goal?
Weight loss is a personal choice, but it shouldn’t be the default measure of health. Anti-diet living focuses on behaviors (like movement, nourishment, sleep, and mental health) rather than manipulating weight, which is largely out of our control. Debbie emphasizes informed choice—and understanding that weight loss diets statistically fail long term.
4. What are the biggest mindset shifts when leaving diet culture?
According to Debbie:
Ditch the scale and weight tracking apps
Stop labeling food as good or bad
Unfollow diet and weight-loss content on social media
Buy clothes for your today body
Find joyful movement—not punishment disguised as fitness
5. How do I explain my anti-diet stance to others without feeling awkward?
It’s okay to set boundaries. A simple, “I’m not discussing diets or body size anymore—let’s talk about something else,” is enough. Debbie reminds us that it’s not your job to justify your healing. It’s your right to protect it.
6. What’s a good place to start if I’m just beginning to unlearn diet culture?
A great place to start is by educating yourself with trusted anti-diet resources. We recommend exploring the Top 12 Anti-Diet Book Club Picks—a curated list to help you understand the science, the history, and the liberation of leaving diet culture behind.
7. Is Debbie a therapist or licensed professional?
No. Debbie is a recovered peer, advocate, and anti-diet community leader. Her work is not a substitute for medical or mental health treatment, but her lived experience and curated resources offer powerful peer support. If you need clinical help, she may be able to point you toward qualified professionals who align with anti-diet values.
Episode Transcript
I just want people to know that recovery is possible. I was 63 years old when I found recovery. I had psychiatrists tell me I was hopeless.
I had therapists say, I can’t treat you anymore because you’re just so determined to fight us on everything. And here I am, I’m trying to help others now because I have found a better way. And it is anti-diet, health and exercise, intuitive eating.
It does work. You just have to let it, and recovery is possible. It happens.
I’m Laurie Mallon, and this is the Results Without Restriction podcast. The show where results have nothing to do with weight and everything to do with setting and reaching health and fitness goals that focus on what we’re achieving and not what we’re losing. We’ll talk about deprogramming from diet culture and get expert advice on reclaiming your relationship with food and movement.
Join me on this journey to get results without restriction. Today, I’m here with Debbie Lusko, who is what I call an anti-diet activist and a superhero. And she’s the host of Diets Don’t Work, which is a large Facebook community that supports and educates people who are looking to ditch the diet mindset and approach health without a harmful focus on weight.
Welcome, Debbie. Thank you. Thanks for having me here.
I’m pretty pumped to talk to you because this is a departure from our normal episodes. Normally, we are talking with coaches, nutritionists, trainers who are in the field helping clients, whereas you are an activist. Do you consider yourself an anti-diet activist? What do you call yourself? Eating disorder awareness and anti-diet, fat liberation activist.
I really wanna promote eating disorder awareness because it, of course, affected me personally, and that’s kinda what I wanna get out there. I’m gonna call you an anti-diet and eating disorder awareness superhero. Okay, this is my passion.
I wanna get the word out, and I go through Instagram and Facebook, and I pull the best of the best and share those posts. I want one place where I can come and see all the various encouragements, anything like that in one place. And that is why I have my page.
But there’s no income for me. It is strictly a labor of love. I say it in my bio.
If I can reach one person, then it’s all worth it. If I can stop one person from running down the track of an eating disorder, then that’s what I’m here for. You curate a lot of valuable posts from other coaches, dieticians, people in the anti-diet and health at every size to share this information with your audience.
You’re having a significant impact without even having a certification or anything like that, but you’re really out there sharing this message about being anti-diet and anti-intentional weight loss and how harmful all this diet culture messaging is and how pervasive it is. I like to get the backstory. So you can tell me how we got to this point where you became the anti-diet superhero that you are today.
Thanks, yes, and I appreciate the name you’re calling me. That’s a fun name to have. That story is that I am a 67-year-old grandmother and I have had an eating disorder since I was probably about eight.
My parents, my dad in particular, was very concerned about what other people saw and he wanted his children to look perfect. And so I was told I was fat and I had to lose weight from a very young age. I can remember being restricted food when I was four years of age.
But that persisted and finally at about 17, I said, fine, you know, fine. You want me thin? I’m gonna be thin. And I did and I lost a lot of weight pretty quickly.
Of course, was hospitalized within six weeks of dropping a lot of weight. And I told my parents that I had a mental disorder. And this is back in the early 1970s that we’re talking about.
And it’s even before Karen Carpenter or any of the names that had eating disorder. This is before that. So they didn’t really know as much in the 70s.
They probably had it in at some kind of DSM book at that point for anorexia, but they didn’t really know what to do with it. So they just told my parents to get me counseling and we did. In fact, I mean, they set me up with the church pastor, said, here help her.
And he did for a little bit and he was very good, but I was determined to make my father proud of me and continue on losing weight, which I did. I was always on a diet from the time from eight years of age till four years ago, I’ve always been on a diet. I was determined to stay that way.
So I’ve been in numerous treatment centers over the years and the most recent one was back in 2017 here in Arizona. I went to Rosewood Eating Disorder Centers, which I can highly recommend. And I don’t promote very many centers, but they’re where I found recovery.
During the course of all the treatment centers, I died a couple times. I remember going to one where I died in the elevator going up to the center and a doctor was with me at the time and he had to do CPR to get me back. And I fought them on it because I said, you should have let me die because I don’t want to be fat.
I don’t want to be fat. You’re going to make me fat. And I was very belligerent with the team at that center and said, no, I’m not eating.
And I tried and they put on some weight on me and I went back home and I immediately turned around and did the same thing all over again. And then in 2017, I got to a point where my job was kind of saying, you can’t go on like this. I was abusing drugs, laxatives, not eating.
My job figured it out and said, you have to get treatment. If you don’t, you don’t have a job. And even then I was still on probation because my job slipped.
I was in the bathroom all the time. I was not eating. I had no comprehension for what I was doing.
As an accountant, you kind of need to know what you’re doing. So I went to Rosewood and I spent almost a year and a half with them in all of their various modalities from inpatient to a residential to PHP to outpatient. And I did all the modalities and I kept saying to them, no, I’m not, no, I’ve put too much weight on.
You cannot make me put on any more weight. And I did, I put on a lot of weight in recovery. I got to a point where they handed me the book Health at Every Size.
And I got through the first chapter and I handed it back to my dietician saying, nope, nope, nope, can’t do this. This is out of the question. There’s no way I want to do this.
I can’t be happy in a fat bond. Proceeded to continue into treatment. And then in 2019, I found Intuitive Eating.
I read the book, was with a dietician now with a different dietician who was promoting it. And I went, okay, I can do this. And we talked about body image and I went back to Health at Every Size and I went, okay.
And by this point I had put on twice what I started out. I mean, I had put on the full amount of my body weight. And so I was very upset with my weight, but in 2019, it was January even, January of 2019.
And all of this stuff on social media was bombarding me, get on this diet, start this gym, start this, start that, the various new year’s resolutions. And I’m like, I’ve got to do something to fight that. I have to figure this out.
Cause I can’t go back to dieting. Cause if I do, I will die. And I had a beautiful granddaughter at that point.
She was four years old and I can’t leave her. I mean, I moved from Pittsburgh to Phoenix because of my eating disorder, but I stayed here because my family was here. And I couldn’t be without my granddaughter.
I thought, nope, I can’t do that. I can’t die. That would just hurt tremendously.
I was very focused on finding reasons why not to go on a diet. And at that point, diet, some work was born. I did it as a selfish venture.
I had to find the reasons why diets don’t work. Why my body was okay, just as it is as a fat body. And I had to find those reasons.
And all of these posts now talking about anti-diet and health at every size and fat activism and eating disorder awareness. I thought it all out and I started reposting them. And by April of 2019, I had my own page with diets don’t work and it has grown ever since.
And I still do the same thing. It is just as much a part of my recovery as it is for everybody else. It keeps me focused on what I’m doing, what I need to think about, and knowing that I can help others is an added benefit.
It keeps me going, but I’m also helping others. Debbie, I’m not gonna lie, that was a little bit emotional. The part about what would save your life right now, because you got to a point where being in a smaller body was worth it to you.
It was life in a fat body or death, and you were making a choice. And then you finally had that, this is something I need to live for. Like this is the thing that I need to focus on.
What I’m doing is not working. It is going to kill me and I cannot keep doing this. So that was kind of like your turning point.
I had to find something to keep me going and the page has definitely kept me going. And I like that because it’s almost like it’s therapeutic. It’s keeping your mind on the right things.
You’re not just helping yourself now, you’re helping others. Right, exactly. And I’m not saying that it’s been easy all along.
The past four years have been full of ups and downs and we had COVID in there and that kind of threw a wrinkle in things. But for the most part, I have stayed on top of it. And I’ve got a wonderful support group.
I’ve got my dieticians who are a blessing to me and we have a support group that I am part of. And if I didn’t have them as well as the page, there probably wouldn’t be a page. I’ve got a therapist now or again, and she’s helping me process some of the things that happened to me as a child that still hold on to me.
It’s been four years of ups and downs, but I’m on top. I’m on top of it now. I can honestly say I’m recovered.
Sure, there’s little glitches that come in every so often, but I am not gonna say I am in recovery because I honestly believe that I have recovered. But God’s grace, I have recovered. Let’s talk real quick about what it means to be anti-diet because let’s be honest, the term anti-diet has become a catchphrase, right? It’s become popularized.
It’s been co-opted by the intentional weight loss brigade, because everybody knows diets don’t work. So we can’t talk about diets, but we still wanna sell the magic of weight loss. It’s gonna solve all your problems and make your life better.
We still wanna make that promise, but without that dirty D word, right? So being anti-diet, what does that mean? Anti-diet means rejecting all the diet culture, rejecting the idea that a diet is going to cure your self-esteem, your body image, your health, any of that kind of stuff. Anti-diet does not mean anti-health. It’s pro-health, as a matter of fact, diet.
And I use that word, but it really encompasses restrictions for the purpose of changing your body, your body size, your body weight. That diet is restricting any kind of food group, any kind of calorie restriction. And even though people say we’re not going to count calories or we’re not gonna track food, we’re gonna change you so that you eat just good food, end quote, there is no such thing.
So it’s rejecting the diet mentality of good foods, bad foods. It’s rejecting the idea that you have to earn your food. It’s rejecting that you can only look a certain way and you have to be this way to be a worthy person.
Everybody’s worthy, no matter what their size, what their color, what their shape, no matter what they are worthy, whether they can move, whether they can’t move, whether they’re disabled or not. It’s all part of that anti-diet. Yeah, I do get approached by health coaches who want to be on the podcast, who are quote, unquote anti-diet.
But when I dig a little further, they’re using weight loss as an outcome, as a metric, but they’re using these Jedi mind tricks to kind of sell you on the same harmful behaviors without the title. So we’re still restricting things. We’re still using the terms good, bad, clean, dirty.
We’re only eating these types of foods. Like we’re still vilifying sugar. We’re still vilifying carbs.
We’re still making it out to be there’s a right way and a wrong way, but we’re not calling it that. So I always have to dig and I have to say, okay, you’re saying you’re anti-diet, but are you actually still peddling weight loss, which is really the harmful silent partner in all of this? Yes, absolutely. And that is the biggest problem with so many of the diet programs that are out there.
New weight watchers and Jenny Craig, which has coming back again. And they all want to try and tell you, you can eat whatever you want as long as it stays within this point value or you can eat whatever you want as long as you count it as part of your daily intake. They’re still tracking everything that you eat.
Doesn’t matter. They have to get you to reduced calories that you’re taking in if they’re going to promise weight loss. And the terrible thing about it is, no matter how many calories you reduce, you are harming your body.
You are setting your body up for organ failure, for dizziness. There is a whole list of things that happens when you start restricting calories. No matter what the reason is, no matter how you go about intentionally losing weight, it’s not going to stay that way.
95 to 98% fail. No matter whatever you want to call it, lifestyle change won’t work. That is absolutely true.
Statistically, we have studies. We have so much science behind the inefficacy of intentional weight loss through these needs. The sad things to me are that, one, coaches and trainers are still being taught to use this as a metric, to use this as a selling point, to use this in marketing, to use this as a basis for health.
To help their clients get healthy, it has to be around reducing their body size, which is, it’s unfortunate. Medical personnel. Yes, exactly.
Doctors, they’re still all using BMI, which is bullshit. They’re still using all of this kind of weight-related information, which does not have any relevance to behaviors or actual health outcomes like your A1C, your blood pressure, your VO2 max. Like any of these actual indicators of health have very, very little to do with the size of your body.
For me personally, as a former health coach and personal trainer, I went through these trainings and they would teach you, here’s how many calories they should be eating. Here’s what their healthy, quote unquote, gonna use your quotes, the healthy body weight. And it’s like, this is so gross.
Let’s stop teaching this to the people who are then, as experts, pushing this information on the general public. I love that there are people like us who are just like, no, we’re not doing this. And there’s signs to back us up.
It’s not like we’re just making this up because we feel good about it. We just wanna be fat, leave us alone. We’re gonna make up some studies like this, right.
That’s what people think. They just want us to be lazy. I’m all for making sure that people have all the proper information as to why diets don’t work or why lifestyle changes don’t work.
Whatever you wanna call it, any kind of restriction. Make an informed choice. Right, and I will point out that, first and foremost, everyone has body autonomy.
So whatever you choose to do with your body is your business, right. You absolutely can make that choice for yourself, but make an informed choice. Make sure you’re actually getting factual information about the choices that you do make.
Right, that’s what I want people to know is I wanna give you the information and make it an informed choice. When you see people who are kind of new to the anti-diet space, they’ve had that lifetime of chronic restriction or weight obsession, things like that. They’re like, I’m done with this.
I want to move into intuitive eating or health at every size, anti-diet movement, but something’s tripping me up. What are the pitfalls that people tend to fall into when they are leaving the diet mindset and finding a new way to do things? I think one of the big things is calling food bad or dirty or unhealthy or treats or junk food. All food has nutritional value no matter what it is.
And your body knows what to do with it. So one of the biggest thing is I want them to eliminate any classification of food, whether bad, whether good, whether dirty, whether clean, whatever you wanna call it, it’s just food. Some foods have more nutritional value than others do, but it doesn’t make them any better than something else.
They demonize sugar, they demonize carbs, they demonize fast food, pizza, hamburgers, whatever it is, it’s all just food, period. You’re gonna get energy from whatever you eat and that’s what it turns into, it turns into glucose. One of the biggest mistakes is just calling it bad and I shouldn’t be eating this, it’s naughty.
I’m not being a good person if I eat this and I hear it on radio, I hear it at church, I hear it in the grocery store, in the hairdressers. I was a bad girl, I ate ice cream for dinner last night. No, it doesn’t make you bad.
Your worth is not determined on what you eat. That is the number one thing, is get rid of the labels on food. Two, clean up your social media.
Find the anti-diet accounts, get rid of any of the weight loss, keto, get rid of those accounts. Follow me, I have a ton of people that you can follow every single day. You can find somebody new on my stage.
Clean up your social media. The next time would be get rid of the clothes that don’t fit. Find the clothes that are comfortable.
I want you to feel nice in whatever you’re wearing. Get rid of that idea that thin is beautiful and fat is ugly and get clothes that fit. Get clothes that fit.
Oh, and exercise. Find the joyful movement. Find something you’d like to do.
If it’s a chore, don’t do it. If you hate running, don’t do it. Find something else.
Go dance, go play tennis, go play anything that you like to do. I have rheumatoid arthritis that has developed over the years here. And I used to be a runner.
I used to run marathons and used to run all the time. I can no longer do that. I loved running.
I loved running. I still wish I could go running, but I can’t. I have found swimming.
I have a pool in my backyard. I go swimming every day. And that is my movement.
That is my exercise. And it satisfies the movement in me. And I still can do it.
Or dancing or chasing down your kids or running around the house, cleaning and laundry and all that. Those are all movements. You’re getting benefit from any of that kind of stuff.
I love that you pointed these out because a lot of the things that kind of keep people stuck when they’re trying to move out of that diet mindset, there are things that they don’t realize that they’ve incorporated into their thoughts and patterns that kind of keep them stuck. So can I recap real quick? So you said one, examine their language that you’re using around food, get rid of the vilifying certain foods, the clean eating, dirty, whatever. Food is food.
Start looking at all food as energy. And yes, some foods have different nutritional values. Some have more fiber.
Some have this, but it’s quantified. It’s not qualified, right? There’s nutrition and everything. Eat what you enjoy and lose the language that kind of keeps you in that diet mindset.
So the second thing you said was get rid of the social media accounts that you’re following that keep you stuck in that. Obsessing about body size and what you’re eating and anything with a before and after picture, gone. I’m showing you my six pack, that kind of vibe, gone.
And I love your feed so much because I do find great accounts follow from it. And that’s kind of how I found you. And I was like, wow, this is like a goldmine of really great accounts to connect with.
I can say now my feed is just full of anti-diet, all that every size, body positive, larger bodies being active and just loving life. And I’m just, I’m thrilled. It’s made a huge difference in my social media experience.
The third thing you said was clean out the closet and get rid of the clothes that you’re hanging on to, your skinny jeans. Right. I used to have a pair of jeans I called my judgment jeans.
And my dietician of course went, no, you need to get rid of them because I would put them on to determine whether or not I’ve put on any weight or have I lost weight. They were judgment jeans, got rid of them, had to get rid of them. And buy clothes for your today body.
And find things that you feel good in as you are right now because confidence and positive self-image has nothing to actually do with your physical body. It’s all up here. And if you’re constantly putting on clothes that used to fit, but don’t, like that’s just gonna keep you stuck in that mentality.
So I love that you mentioned that. And then the other thing you said, having that moral kind of like connection with the food, like food is good or bad. It’s neither.
And you’re neither good or bad for eating it. If you eat a donut, you’re not bad. If you eat a donut and then you roll a bank, yes, you’re bad.
Yes, yes. The donut alone is not what does it. So we could be here all day talking about the benefits of ditching the diet culture and moving into a new head space of loving your body as it is being respectful of it and caring for it and finding ways to feed it and move it that you enjoy.
So what would you say are like the top three benefits of ditching diet culture? You’re going to find that you actually have freedom, which is food. You can eat what you want, when you want it. You’re no longer focused on the numbers of the food or exercise.
And here you are thinking about numbers all the time. And all of a sudden, they’re gone. I can go out to dinner with people.
I can go out to dinner with friends. I don’t have to worry about whether or not they’ve got something I can eat or not eat or is this going to fit into my plan today? You’re not thinking about numbers. You’ve got more brain space.
I have more brain space to go play with my granddaughter. And that may sound very elusive, but you really will find you’ve got more things that you can think about. You have more time.
I have more friends, more availability for friends, and I can talk to them without worrying about saying something wrong as far as diets are concerned, more self-esteem. You’re not fighting with your body anymore, respecting your body for what it does and how it is. That act of constantly changing your body definitely destroys self-esteem because it never does what you think it should do.
And when you give that up, you can be the person that you’re meant to be and you don’t have to fight with it anymore. You give up the fight. I’m not saying give up the fight for health.
I’m saying give up the fight for making it a shape that you think is acceptable. So freedom. Essentially, what I’m hearing is you get a lot of freedom in your head, in your calendar, and the way you feel about your body is just you’re not confined anymore to routines or thought patterns or restaurants or activities, how you feel about your body because you’re told to feel that way about your body.
Right, right. That’s very freeing. It was amazing to me when I went through this and pretty, it was very gradual, but when you realize how much time you used to waste trying to control something that inevitably was never gonna change, but just obsessing about how much, when, where.
I get a little angry when I think about how much time I did waste on all that, but we’re here now. So, but yes, it’s very freeing to finally let all of that go. So Debbie, you have a Facebook page, Diets Don’t Work, and you have a group.
You have a private group that people can join. Is a private group. You have to get to it by going to the Diets Don’t Work page.
You can get to it through there. You can always message me through the page and I will get you into the group. It is a private group where people post questions.
The group has almost 4,500 members in it right now. So you get quite an assortment of answers. The group is moderated heavily.
So you’re not gonna get a diet answer. You’re not gonna get, oh well, just tell them to quit eating sugar. That won’t happen in the group, I guarantee you.
It is a anti-diet, non-intentional weight loss group. I’ll put the link in the show notes and if anybody wants to join. Just to reiterate though, you’re not a therapist.
You’re not a counselor. You’re not a certified coach or anything like that. You’re not giving medical advice.
You’re not, this is more of a peer support group for other people who have been in this space. And when you come in to ask questions or get support, keep that in mind that if you do need a referral for a therapist or something like that, Debbie probably has resources to share, but just keep in mind this is a peer group and there will be no sneaky like weight loss answer, diet talk that sneaks in so that this is a safe place to talk about things in the anti-diet world. Exactly.
Perfect. And you have a website. Website, diets-don’t-work.net. I will put a link to your website in the show notes as well and they can visit you there.
They can sign up for your newsletter. I’m so thankful for you, Debbie, because I know that it’s hard. It’s hard to live with this every day and you are recovered, but it’s still something you’re doing every day to stay there.
It’s not like a switch was flipped and now I don’t have to work on this anymore enough to think about it after care. You’re in this every day reminding yourself, these are the messages I need to hear. These are the people I need to be surrounded by.
These are the things I need to continue to reinforce. That’s right. Absolutely.
And that’s exactly why I do what I do. Please just know that you’re helping so many people every day and that the work that you do is very, very important and it’s so impactful. I appreciate that.
I really do. Debbie, let’s wrap up. What I like to do at the end of every episode is have my guests give me their top three tips for whatever their area of expertise is.
Yours is recovering from eating disorder and ditching the diet mindset. Can you give us your top three tips for doing that? One, get rid of the scale. Two, change your language around food, around your body.
Three, get rid of all your apps that monitor your weight, monitor your food, monitor exercise. Get rid of them. You’re gonna do it with joyful movements.
You’re gonna do it with intuitive eating. You’re gonna do it with better mindset. One thing that we did not even touch on and then maybe this would be a second episode is, because you actually did mention a little bit about how people wanna talk about your diet and people love to talk about why.
Why is this interesting? I don’t know. But what they eat, what they, you know, how they’re, what they’re doing to their body. But finding friends who share this approach to health and letting people in your life know, listen, this isn’t a conversation topic I engage in anymore.
Depending on how comfortable you are with being straightforward about you’re not discussing diets anymore. You’re not talking about body size. We’re not talking about weight loss.
Making sure that the people around you know, listen, I’m, this is no longer an important thing to me. It’s actually very harmful. I’d like to talk about something else.
And maybe just having in your back pocket, like topic changers or like ways that you can say, listen, you know what? I don’t really wanna talk about that. Can we talk about something else?
Favorite anti-diet book: Anti-Diet: Reclaim Your Time, Money, Well-Being, and Happiness Through Intuitive Eatingby Christy Harrison, MPH, RD, CEDS
Favorite size inclusive/fitness-focused social media profile: Healthy with Kelsey
Favorite Results Without Restriction podcast episode: Get off the Diet Rollercoaster with Certified IE Coach, Brooke Spendlove
Favorite food-positive cookbook author: Leanne Brown Good Enough: A Cookbook: Embracing the Joys of Imperfection and Practicing Self-Care in the Kitchen
Favorite certified Intuitive Eating counselor: Christy Harrison
Favorite size inclusive/anti-diet personal trainer: Ragen Chastain
Realistic & holistic wellness with Megan Caldwell, personal trainer and health coach, who helps busy moms prioritize self-care, move past overwhelm and exhaustion to find strength and confidence in both mind and body.
What’s Ahead…
In this Episode
Megan shares her journey of transitioning from a stay-at-home mom to an entrepreneur, running a fitness franchise for moms. Despite the success she found, she was burnt out, putting her own wellness on the back burner.
Recognizing the importance of holistic wellness – meaning it’s more than just fitness – she now focuses on five pillars of health: movement, hydration, nutrition, sleep, and stress management, because taking care of yourself, creating habits, and finding systems that work with you and the season of life that you’re in are critical to maintaining your physical, mental, and emotional health.
Welcome everyone. I am here with Megan Caldwell. She is a personal trainer and a health coach who helps busy moms prioritize their own self care and find ways to truly feel like their best selves and every aspect of their lives.
00:46 As a wellness and empowerment coach, she helps her clients move past overwhelm and exhaustion to help them find strength and confidence in both mind and body.
00:55 Welcome Megan. Good morning. How are you? Okay, Megan. Let’s dig in here. What I want to do is start with your best story.
01:02 Tell me how we got to this point. Yeah, I find it so interesting. When we take a look at our own stories, each of us have our own stories.
01:09 I started in my professional career in education. So as a high school special education and math teacher, I was also a basketball coach.
01:16 Very engulfed in my career and loving it and had my first kid. And as those of us that are moms know, perspective change priorities change and my own health was suffering as I was trying to balance motherhood with balance and balancing career.
01:31 Brand new mom. I had actually stepped into a new role working at a university coaching and teaching teachers. And I got to a point where for the first time I really felt my own mental health suffer. I was having anxiety and panic attacks. And I got to a point where I said, I can’t do this anymore. So my husband and I picked up camp.
01:48 We were in Los Angeles and we moved up here to just outside Portland, Oregon, which is where we had family. And I said, I just want to be a stay at home. Just want to stay at home. I just want to raise this baby.
01:57 I just want to be a stay at home. I eat the hardest job in the entire world because I learned that I would not be my best self in that full time stay at home.
02:07 So four months after moving up here, I had the opportunity to own and operated a fitness franchise for moms called fit for mom.
02:14 And I took that on and I dove in and it was awesome. I could bring my kids to work. I ran the business out the whole my groove from a small thing into this great big entity here in Portland where at one point I had a team of 14.
02:25 I was nationally recognized by the organization. All these great things. And two more babies into that space while I was in that role.
02:33 This entrepreneurship and it was such an amazing season of my life. And from the outside, it looks like I had everything put together.
02:41 I had three healthy kids. I had a marriage. I had, you know, this really successful business and underneath the surface.
02:49 I was just pedaling constantly. I was putting my own wellness on the back burner again. And I hit burnout for the second time in my first two careers.
02:59 And I had women in the and asked me weekly, Megan, I don’t know how you do it. You’ve got it all put together.
03:04 And here I am leading these other moms and women and I’m saying, oh, yeah, I know it’s hard, but like I’m doing it and I’m leading.
03:11 And so it didn’t take me till I was about five years ago where again, I hit a low and I recognize this is not where I want to be.
03:17 I don’t want to be putting my kids on iPad so I can continue to serve others. I don’t want to be disregarding my marriage.
03:25 I want to feel good. And what does that even mean. So I got to the point where I’m I didn’t, I didn’t even know what I needed.
03:33 But what I learned is I needed to prioritize my own wellbeing first. I started seeing a therapist. But when I started taking care of my own sleep, my own fitness, my nutrition stress management boundary setting.
03:46 Time management, all these different pieces. When I started taking care of this, I was able to start to shift to see what does Megan need because I know I can be successful, but how can I be successful and also to care of myself?
03:57 Because I truly believe that when we as women take care of ourselves first, then we can serve better. Where this led to is I ended up selling my fitness franchise.
04:07 I recognized in my own journey and the work I was doing in the fitness space that wellness is more than just fitness.
04:12 So I truly believed when I was in the fitness franchise, that if women just came to my classes, like all the problems would be solved.
04:18 Everything would be good. You’re going to hit your goals and again through my own journey and just the work that I’ve done with women.
04:23 It is more than just fitness. It’s taking a look at our own holistic being, identifying what are our needs, what are our desires and then setting up sustainable habits to keep us feeling the way that we want to feel.
04:35 So a lot of it got me to this point on my own journey, again being in the fitness space and recognizing that movement is a piece of the puzzle.
04:45 But what else is needed here. So I now kind of preach five pillars of health. So movement and fitness is one piece of it.
04:53 Hydration kind of has its standalone pillar because it’s got such benefits and it’s one of those domino habits I call where when we have hydration in place.
05:01 And oftentimes other things on the place. Nutrition we’re taking a look at how we fuel our bodies rather than to pry our bodies.
05:07 We look at sleep. And then the biggest piece of the work I do in my coaching work across the board I’d say is stress awareness and stress management figuring out how we move through obstacles because we could have the best plan in place for fitness and nutrition.
05:20 And again, when your kid gets sick. When the life happens when you move it could all go out the window.
05:27 All of the things that you mentioned fitness, nutrition, hydration, stress management boundaries all those things. I love these because these when I was a coach this was these were all part of my program called results without restriction which was not about looking at what we can take away and what
05:44 We can force ourselves to do. But what are we adding what are we what are the things that are outside the gym or outside the kitchen that impact health and wellness.
05:54 So I love that that is is part of your program as well. I love that you include boundaries and time management because a lot of people do not recognize how those two things can impact your physical mental emotional health and that you are protecting your resources you are protecting your energy.
06:15 You are protecting your piece when you have boundaries and it is a critical piece of self care. So I love that you have incorporated those hydration.
06:26 I am the worst at drinking water. My husband is always like never I have some kind of physical. Oh, I have a headache.
06:31 Well, I feel tired of this. How much water have you been drinking? Finally bought a big like half gallon joke and I’m like, okay, this is happening.
06:39 This is what I’m going to do. And I started drinking two of those a day and I was like, is this what people feel like every day?
06:46 It was such a difference. Tell me more like how did you feel like a brand new person? My husband was like, I do not even want to hear it.
06:53 I do not want to hear it because I have been. He was the prepping the few for years. He has been saying it for like a decade and I’m finally like telling like I’m coming back to him.
07:03 Like it’s brand new information. I’m like, did you know that if I drink all this water and when they I feel so much better?
07:08 My stomach felt good. I don’t know how else to do more headaches every day from dehydration. Because one of those things that people often like hear hydration and they just think it’s so basic.
07:19 Like what is that actually going to do? What our body is made up of like 90% water or something, right?
07:24 It’s like something crazy like that. And so this is exactly like the aha that and it doesn’t always just take a week or two for women to figure out how to make it work.
07:33 I do find the vessel, so the water bottle and having it accessible can be like one of the easiest ways to help consume more water.
07:42 But that’s exactly what I work with with my clients is figuring out how to certain actions, especially when we get into hydration and nutrition is how to certain things actually make you feel, right?
07:52 Because you could be told that like X number of ounces of water is what you need per day. I know for a fact I need close to 100 ounces.
07:59 If I go less than that, I just feel parched and that is just me building this habit over time. I have other women who are trying to build up from 16 ounces a day to 24 ounces a day, right?
08:10 And just figuring out what is that number that you and your body needs first, what you’re told you should be doing.
08:16 Well, if the other part of it that was key for me was having a big container that I didn’t have to keep refilling because if I have to keep refilling it, it’s not going to happen.
08:25 And when I brought this joke home, it’s like a half gallon, he laughed at me and he’s like, you have a million water bottles.
08:32 Why don’t you just use those? And I’m like, because they have a whole 20 ounces, I have to keep getting up.
08:37 I have to like if I have to refill it, that’s just not going to happen. He can’t wrap his head around why that’s hard for me.
08:41 And I’m like, I can’t either, but listen, this is just where we are. This is what I need. And it works.
08:47 For me. So for me, it was making it so super, stupid, easy to just have it there and not have to like even make more work for myself.
08:55 Like don’t put speed bumps like on your own path to success. Like make your, make your, make your plants easy to water.
09:01 Okay. Just like make it super simple for yourself. But then stress management. I love that that is a big part of your program because when you’re not doing that that has such far reaching impacts physical mental and emotional.
09:14 I don’t think people realize that having an active stress management strategies in place can have that much of an impact on their physical health because it trickles down to everything.
Totally. And we know, we know for a fact that that increased stress and increased cortisol levels will lead to other health challenges down the road.
09:34 And so even if it’s thinking about those longer term thing, I work with a lot of women who have anxiety who have ADHD who have kind of these higher levels of sensory input if you, if you will.
What you need for stress awareness and management when you’re out and about at the grocery store is going to be different than when you’re doing work in your office.
And not only that, but there’s like that chronic low grade stress and then there’s like life event stress. And I think that the chronic low grade stress is so sneaky because you don’t even realize like you recognize when oh somebody close to us passes away that’s stressful or somebody’s a job or something like that that’s an event that you can recognize okay this is stressful. The constant little things that are like what’s that phrase like death by a thousand cuts it’s cumulative.
And I think that was a really big aha in my own journey is when I was working with with my therapist is she brought that to my forefront to say Megan you have been living in this state of stress up here that it’s not surprising that you have trouble making decisions.
That’s not surprising that you blow up at your kids when they do nothing it’s not surprising that conversation with your husband’s tens right because when we are in this constant state and again it doesn’t mean yes there’s a cute as you said like acute life events.
The death of a lump one a big move of whatever it is that will trigger great levels of stress but it’s more of all of these just like the hustle of everyday living that over time really catches up to people and that’s where I find women speak me out is they say I don’t want to do this anymore right.
I know that I can do this but I’m at a point where I don’t want to it doesn’t feel good.
I think too another factor in there is like social media so we see everybody everybody dying for the award of most busy look how many things I’m doing look how.
I’m going to be showing you a highlight reel where she’s doing all these different things of course she’s snapping like a twig as soon as she gets home but she’s not showing that so we are all kind of comparing our behind the scenes to everybody else’s highlight reel and we’re feeling kind of bad about
ourselves about what we feel like we should be able to handle. Totally and I think that so many women suffer from that is just that comparison truly is the thief of joy right if we’re constantly comparing ourselves to the rest of the world to other people’s highlight reel.
Yes, then when we see that and we feel that we’re like only down here we self sabotage right we continue to engrain stories that do not serve us.
12:07 One thing I work with women we talk about just even measuring success is how do we measure progress and not just again a over perfection right perfection being what you see on that person’s Instagram.
12:18 What are our measures of success because very well what you’re seeing on the screen isn’t even how you want to measure yourself.
12:25 It’s a little tricky to because we have die culture we have socialization of like how we’re measuring success are always these numbers right but there has to be like a qualitative way to look at how we’re improving different areas of our life versus a quantitative and saying how do we measure how we’re
12:42 improving our how we’re making progress without getting into. Numbers that aren’t necessarily indicators of health or indicators of anything right that’s that’s really helpful.
12:52 Right, I totally agree there’s one exercise I do with clients which I call the joy exercise which is really figuring out like what are the pieces that are missing in your life that you want that will bring you joy and for some it’s like peeling back the layers to say well I really think it’s this I
13:06 used to do this and recognizing okay that actually doesn’t serve me or in the season of life I’m in I can’t do that activity right and it’s figuring out ways exactly that at the end of the day.
13:15 I want my clients to feel good right and we know that feeling good isn’t going to be a number on the scale it’s not going to be the size pants that you’re wearing again in this culture where we are constantly trying to rise to a certain standard.
13:29 What happens when you hit that number what do we often do we then try to go up to the next and the next and it’s like we’re constantly striving rather than also just recognizing where you are how you can be happy in that moment.
13:40 Right it’s never enough when you’re like okay well this feels good well what about more and what about more. And then we’re constantly on that that hamster wheel of going to the next thing not to mention we’re socialized to think you know that if you hit this number the pantsize the scale that’s going
13:56 to be some kind of measure of happiness measure of you as a person. And yes we do live in a society that treats people better the smaller they are so they’re they’re going to always benefits just by society by achieving these things but it’s not it has nothing to do with your happiness and your life
14:15 and the things. Right because we know that sometimes the people that look that standard are the most unhappy right it’s figuring out what are what are those things that make you tick what are those things that are going to really make you feel good and make you feel like you are thriving.
14:27 All right Megan talk to me about your program to help people can work with you what does it look like.
14:32 I have been loving the work I’ve been doing in the wellness and empowerment coaching space that’s what I call myself a wellness and empowerment coach.
14:39 Because again I want to walk alongside someone until they feel that they can just take it on their own. Currently I’m taking a new one on one clients in my holistic wellness coaching which I do primarily virtually so you can be anywhere and I have what I call the best self package it’s how do we help you feel
14:54 like your best self and kind of as we talked about today. Take a look at some of those basics like the hydration nutrition movement and then we do get into the boundary setting and really it’s tailored to whatever a woman needs so I have someone who really like to dive deep into that nutrition space
15:09 and work for it’s mindful eating and I have someone where I just do a lot of work around organizational and time management stuff.
15:17 It’s everything not just fitness it’s not just foods you do a lot of mindset work and empowerment and why that is integral to building a practice that’s sustainable over their lifetime empowerment.
15:30 I’m curious if people use that word to describe what they want it is what they want they want to be empowered but are they using that word are they like man you know what I could really use some empowerment today.
How can I how can I get empowered but but the thoughts that they have that mean that are more like man I wish I just felt like I wasn’t always like at the end of my rope I’m not always exhausted.
I wish I could like offload this on to somebody else or I wish I could just kind of like clear my schedule and take some time for myself.
Yeah, I find that women don’t often use that word empowered or empowerment but more so we’re hearing it kind of exactly like you said more I want more of a sense of control.
Which comes down to kind of again with the way the brain works in terms of that all or nothing mindset is we want it this way or this way well, how do we find that happy medium right.
I also find women and just in the work I do at the crossover between wellness coaching and craning clients physically training clients is just the feeling of strength and this feeling of energy right because one of the number one.
I guess challenges that the woman I work with face is just this constant feeling of exhaustion and like we’re constantly spinning the wheels.
So how do we work to change things so there’s not so much brain power. And that face so we do feel more empowered and we feel more in control, if you will, of of what we’re choosing to do with our life.
The human brain is such an interesting thing, which has evolved over millions of years and we just naturally as humans are brain goes to the negative as a safety mechanism to try to protect ourselves as human and keep us safe.
And so part of the work that I do with women is helping them shift that mindset to adopt a more positive mentality not to say that there’s not space for negative thoughts and for pain and for all of that, but just learning how to reframe certain situations so we can continue to move forward in the direction we are wanting to go. So is this kind of like a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. Yeah, absolutely exactly that you know fixed mindset being that you are set in your ways, but the cool thing, especially I’ve got a background in education is human brains are adaptable and malleable and so just being able to recognize that we have the power to change our brain change our thinking just as we do any other habit that we’re looking to change.
Right, so it’s not a change in all of these kind of grooved in patterns like neuro plasticity it’s the power to be able to go in and say this is the way I normally would approach like not even meaning to but just my default mode of when this happens.
18:09 What I think this is how I feel you can reprogram that that is mind boggling that you can change the reaction to have to something just by observing the pattern of what you normally do and stopping it and saying this is how I want to think about this and then you start to do it.
18:26 Exactly, and I think that we live in this culture and society were constantly on the go I work primarily with busy moms who are just like holding all the roles and constantly go go go so many expectations that oftentimes we don’t even take the time to.
18:40 I think that we do have the power to make those changes in brain and in body. Something that I’ve noticed and that something you’re doing physically can change where you are mentally like it really changes your state when you do something physical.
18:57 I do believe that movement is one of those kind of keys to unlocking women’s health when we can figure out how to insert regular movements intentional movement and purposeful movement as I call it.
19:08 Then we start to see some of the other shifts in their wellness happen to just such an unlock for a lot of people kind of connecting to the things that we’ve already talked about the brain piece and the thinking piece with the movement piece of this what I find.
19:24 With a lot of the woman the woman that I work with is that we have these beliefs as to what fitness what exercise needs to be, just based on the way that we are raised.
19:34 So we have this notion that it has to be a 60 minute class it has to be hard and sweating it has to be at the gym it has to be all these things and so then we fall into this all or nothing mindset of well.
19:45 I didn’t make it to my 60 minute class so I might as well just start again tomorrow or I’ll try again tomorrow as opposed to recognizing the power of again a lot of the woman I work with our working moms.
19:55 And just being able to take. 3 10 minute breaks throughout your day or 5 minute breaks even to just get up and move your body is that walking up and downstairs putting your laundry in is it a light stretch.
20:07 And again just working to shift the mind because when we change the mind we can then help change those actions for long term success.
20:14 For me it’s like lifting weights. If I can just take a few minutes take a few minutes to lift some weights my whole day is different.
20:23 Yeah and there’s so much research behind obviously just the power of movement whether it’s strength training whether it’s going out for a leisurely walk and just the power of moving your body and the endorphins come up and you know clearing the head some.
20:36 I think also you know there’s this the saying I guess that motion changes emotion. It’s even something as simple as okay you’re sitting at your desk your work done a work project you’re getting really frustrated you’re feeling anxiety come in as you can’t figure it out even just to physically remove
20:51 yourself from that space and change your location. Right it’s the physical movement and then it’s also just being in the front space can have so much power that’s why my watch is always like alright.
21:01 It could happen to go somewhere else for like five minutes you don’t have to do anything just go be somewhere else for five minute stand up just stand up.
21:10 Yes, we’ll look a little bit different when you sit back down. Totally and I think that one thing that I’ll often share either with clients or if I’m doing you know presentations or workshops is just to remember that as human beings again we talk a little bit about the human brain but as human beings
21:22 we are naturally born to be moving creatures. Hundreds of years ago we are hunters and gatherers and so just naturally our body doesn’t care for the sedentary lifestyle and over the last couple hundred years what do we do.
21:35 We sit at our jobs we sit in consume social media or TV or even sit and read right do we just have such a sedentary lifestyle that our body actually craves it and so I love this because we just covered physical activity impacts mental state and then the way you think about how you move.
21:53 Can also impact how often you do it and it’s a kind of like a back and forth like change the way you think about what activity needs to be you’re gonna do it more often you’re gonna have that physical movement that’s gonna change how your brain is kind of working at the moment and it’s going to snowball
22:10 . It totally is and it like comes down to that concept of the chicken and the egg right where which one comes first which one do you need first and I feel like for a lot of people changing up here can be really challenging.
22:21 So why not start by just trying to move your body start with five minutes and then see where that goes because it’s hard to just change the thoughts to then change that behavior right kind of take action and learn from it.
22:33 Like whatever new habit you want to have do something this big and then just let that momentum push you to keep doing other things and keep it going.
22:43 Building sustainable healthy habits is at the base of my holistic wellness coaching. I see so many women come in and saying I want to feel better I want more energy and they’ve tried all these extremes in the past with work for so long right we can do an intense workout program or eight or 12 weeks.
22:56 And then what happens is eventually life happens you get sick you travel some variable changes and then we fall off and need to come back and that’s why my approach is start small use habit stacking.
23:10 You know again success build upon success so we can just find tiny success recognize it and celebrate it. Do you do online and virtual personal training.
23:19 I do majority of my business is online and virtual a lot of strength based personal training as we know that’s so important especially as we age, I we have a lot of the wellness coaching work into it.
23:30 My training approach in the in the physical space but it’s all about functional movement. It’s what type of movements do we need and how come against strength so we can continue to enjoy the activities that we want to be doing one more 70 right.
23:43 Yeah, as we get older things are things are different. Yeah, they’re much challenging there are things I need to be doing so that I can keep moving it’s not always going to be this easy.
23:53 My target market is busy moms who are feeling overwhelmed and I help them find that confidence find that strength in both body and mind.
24:00 So I do some in person personal training but most of the stuff I do is be a zoom either personal training and the wellness coaching as well.
24:08 I love that now you do like real time zoom session like most of my clients I work with one time a week and and we’ll do one live 45 or 60 minute session depending what we’re set up on.
24:19 And then I do use an app where I can program and other workouts for them as well to do on their own time I also have a big of live recorded workouts from my group fitness virtual classes so often direct women.
24:34 To some of those as well for those that prefer to like work along with something as opposed to just check exercises off the box.
24:40 It’s nice to at least feel like you’re working out with somebody like when you’re home alone, but at least you feel like you have some kind of support.
24:48 You have a free gift for our audience it is the weekly wellness tracker can you talk to us a little bit about what that looks like.
24:54 Yeah, this is something that I created based on different trackers different planners that I’ve personally used that I’ve used with clients in the past.
25:02 I find oftentimes when women feel so far off track or want to work towards some type of change one of the easiest ways to plan and see success is using some type of tracker.
25:14 So I’ve set this up pretty simple. You can track kind of my five basic wellness areas or you can put your own stuff on there and I use it as both a planning tool as well as a tracking tool when I say tracking.
25:29 I want it to be a space where you check it off or you put the sticker on to celebrate because as we’ve talked about like our brain wants to see success.
25:37 And I love this even more so I know that some women start with this with me and then move into an app or move into the regular planner but having of your wellness and one space can be really powerful.
And I am one of those physical write out my so I can check things off because I have tried to get into apps for it but something because it’s so easy right you have it on the app it’s all organized you can like, but what something about seeing it on a piece of paper checking a box putting a sticker seeing it done. It has so much more of a mental impact
I agree yeah and I think the physical writing of it there’s research behind that just says that that will ingrain more into your into your brain into your psyche you know like to help you find success like yes apps definitely have a place and for some women that is what works at the end of the day, I don’t works for you.
Megan, what I like to do at the end of every episode is have my guests give us their top three tips.
The first one is just to remember the season of life that you’re in oftentimes we are comparing ourselves back to our past cells And so remember what’s within your control, because it’s very easy to get caught up on everybody else’s ish or things that are outside of our control so to just remember when making change remember the things that we do have the power to control.
My second one is giving yourself permission, I think, as busy women, especially moms again we are constantly in this giving mode that is what society preaches to us is that We should be meeting everybody else’s needs, we should be giving all the time give yourself permission to prioritize yourself.
You have to until you give yourself permission and recognize that you can take time for you, you can put your own needs first it’s really hard to make change, because otherwise you’re doing it in a resentful state. I heard a lot of should so having that thought we’re like I should be doing this I should be doing that should that be like that should be a flag.
We could talk a whole episode on this constant of shooting ourselves give yourself permission and identify what are the things that you actually want to do what you need and want to prioritize.
And then I think the last piece of advice is just don’t feel like you have to go it alone. There is such great power and accountability and camaraderie whether it’s finding a group support whether it’s having an accountability buddy or if you are ready to take it to that next level, finding a coach, finding somebody who can help guide you and see your cheerleader, give you tools and support and help you work through the change that you’re looking to have.
We know for a fact that motivation is going to come and go. So if you’re feeling motivated to start something, reach out, find a buddy, find a coach, right, because when you come to your lower points, that’s when you’re going to want to have some systems in place and have some other links, I have your website, I have all of your social media links, I’ll be putting those in the show notes as well as some of the links, some other things that we kind of mentioned like some studies you talked about.
So I’ll put that in the show notes as well and a link to book a call with you and connect with you directly.
Megan, thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Laurie, this was fun. I’ll see you next time.
